Also, because so much of my “thing” is about constructive self-doubt it makes me wonder if the eye test alone is not freighted, easily manipulated, pre-narrated. I mean isn’t the counterpoint of the, let’s say, Mattingly argument, his actual career. We *thought* we were watching a HOF career, and it ended, and the statistics tell us we maybe weren’t. Doesn’t that at least potentially indict the way we were watching? We were young, it was the perfect anelstrom of the baseball card era, New York, etc. I’m sort of interested in it that way. It seems that at least conceptually that would imply we watched guys have HOF careers whom we never realized. IDK I don’t care about Scott Rolen one bit (a-ha!!) but it’s just an interesting epistemological question for me.
I don't think I've ever done a detailed anti-WAR piece, and I'm probably not the guy to do it honestly. I don't think WAR is completely useless, even if I might occasionally say so when I'm feeling salty during a heated discussion. I do, however, have a problem when people use it as an end-all, be-all in evaluating a player because it can be flawed and provide an incomplete portrait, for the reasons I state in my Parker-Rolen comparison. The eye test can be just as unreliable, so a better method is probably a combination of the two, although the eye test is so subjective it becomes hard to quantify. If there's going to be an unofficial WAR line for the HOF, it needs to have some wiggle room for the kinds of accomplishments I threw out there for Parker and Murphy. But what annoys me even more about the so-called WAR line is they're not even consistent with it. Otherwise, why is Lou Whitaker not in?
Haha. Definitely worth the trip. And look at it this way. There are so many numbers/stats at play in that place, they're bound to demand your attention and distract you from any other numbers that might otherwise be weighing you down, like say, age.
Great piece, Patrick! While there have been plenty of enshrinees who have worn an Astros cap, it took until 2017 for the first "home-grown" one....Biggio. Bagwell followed shortly thereafter. Here's my The Runner Sports piece from January '17 on the Biggio induction: https://therunnersports.com/craig-biggio-2015-first-astro-in-the-hall-of-fame/
Thanks for the link, Brad. As I've mentioned before, while I've never considered myself a true Astros fan, I have a number of connections to them and they've always been one of my favorite secondary teams. It started with Ryan and Mike Scott in the mid-80's with the Tequila Sunrise unis, but really took off when the Killer B's showed up. I was a massive Biggio and Bagwell fan in the 90's, and still consider myself a big fan, even though they're no longer playing. They were equally great players, although my favorite was always Biggio. For some reason, I was thinking Bagwell went into the Hall first, but you are, of course, right. And that makes sense, considering I remembering looking for Biggio's plaque when I visited in 2016, and why I have no memory or pics of Bagwell's- he wouldn't be inducted for another year.
You're right about the homegrown aspect too. It's one thing for a HOFer to have played for your team, but it's something completely different and special for someone whose career is defined by their time with your team to be inducted. As you may or may not be aware of, there is only one plaque in Cooperstown with a player wearing a Royals hat- George Brett. So it's something special for us Royals fans to seek him out, much the same way it is for Astros fans and the Killer B's, I'm sure. I'm hopeful that Greinke will become the second player to be inducted with a Royals hat in the near future. It won't be the same as Brett, since Zack has played for multiple other teams and spent a lot of his prime with other franchises (including Houston!)- though he had some great individual seasons and won a Cy Young in KC- but if it happens it will only strengthen the bond between Zack and Royals fans and give us all another plaque to prioritize whenever we visit the Hall!
Lots of similarities between our two teams, Patrick; There's never been any reason for me to look upon the Royals, over the decades, with anything other than light fandom and appreciation...of their players, their purty unis, and their similarly "nice" players the Astros always seemed to nurture!
We were on pins and needles in Space City, always wondering if the lingering shadow of substance abuse would keep hanging over Baggy, blocking his entrance to the Hall. Linked in that same Biggio article, Patrick, is one you might enjoy (with a title I'm kinda proud of): "Jeff Bagwell and His Use of Performance Enhancing Talent"! Kind of a digit of choice in the direction of Hall voters who couldn't and wouldn't move forward even as they had no proof of usage. The article includes some eye-popping stats few seem to know about Jeff's career.
Man, Zack will be a coin flip, won't he? I'd love to see stats and some comps with other Hall pitchers as to his likely eligibility. He pitched so long, it's likely his longevity (and the stats on the backside of his career) might tend to deflate some of his fabulousness. But, oh, what his acceptance speech would be like!!!😱
Thanks again for allowing me to "rent" your site's acreage for my article links! You're very kind, and I appreciate it....hope your readers dig'em, too!
Amen, always interesting Patrick! I took my two sons to see in my estimation the best induction ever, George Brett, Nolan Ryan & Robin Young & someone I can't remember? I believe he was an old Cardinal. Got to go back, it was way too crowded. Est. 40K fans for that induction, a record I believe. I agree with you on Rolan.
Nice to see this piece. Where if anywhere have you made your anti-WAR case? Curious to read it
Also, because so much of my “thing” is about constructive self-doubt it makes me wonder if the eye test alone is not freighted, easily manipulated, pre-narrated. I mean isn’t the counterpoint of the, let’s say, Mattingly argument, his actual career. We *thought* we were watching a HOF career, and it ended, and the statistics tell us we maybe weren’t. Doesn’t that at least potentially indict the way we were watching? We were young, it was the perfect anelstrom of the baseball card era, New York, etc. I’m sort of interested in it that way. It seems that at least conceptually that would imply we watched guys have HOF careers whom we never realized. IDK I don’t care about Scott Rolen one bit (a-ha!!) but it’s just an interesting epistemological question for me.
I don't think I've ever done a detailed anti-WAR piece, and I'm probably not the guy to do it honestly. I don't think WAR is completely useless, even if I might occasionally say so when I'm feeling salty during a heated discussion. I do, however, have a problem when people use it as an end-all, be-all in evaluating a player because it can be flawed and provide an incomplete portrait, for the reasons I state in my Parker-Rolen comparison. The eye test can be just as unreliable, so a better method is probably a combination of the two, although the eye test is so subjective it becomes hard to quantify. If there's going to be an unofficial WAR line for the HOF, it needs to have some wiggle room for the kinds of accomplishments I threw out there for Parker and Murphy. But what annoys me even more about the so-called WAR line is they're not even consistent with it. Otherwise, why is Lou Whitaker not in?
I'm a Royals fan who lives in the Cooperstown area. It is a great place, and not just for baseball. Glad you enjoyed your visit!
A visit to Cooperstown is my goal for my 50th birthday, which is coming up many years from now. OK, several years. OK, two years. Sigh.
Haha. Definitely worth the trip. And look at it this way. There are so many numbers/stats at play in that place, they're bound to demand your attention and distract you from any other numbers that might otherwise be weighing you down, like say, age.
That is definitely a good way to look at it!
Did you make it?? Tick tock
We're going this fall!
Enjoy!
Great piece, Patrick! While there have been plenty of enshrinees who have worn an Astros cap, it took until 2017 for the first "home-grown" one....Biggio. Bagwell followed shortly thereafter. Here's my The Runner Sports piece from January '17 on the Biggio induction: https://therunnersports.com/craig-biggio-2015-first-astro-in-the-hall-of-fame/
Thanks for the link, Brad. As I've mentioned before, while I've never considered myself a true Astros fan, I have a number of connections to them and they've always been one of my favorite secondary teams. It started with Ryan and Mike Scott in the mid-80's with the Tequila Sunrise unis, but really took off when the Killer B's showed up. I was a massive Biggio and Bagwell fan in the 90's, and still consider myself a big fan, even though they're no longer playing. They were equally great players, although my favorite was always Biggio. For some reason, I was thinking Bagwell went into the Hall first, but you are, of course, right. And that makes sense, considering I remembering looking for Biggio's plaque when I visited in 2016, and why I have no memory or pics of Bagwell's- he wouldn't be inducted for another year.
You're right about the homegrown aspect too. It's one thing for a HOFer to have played for your team, but it's something completely different and special for someone whose career is defined by their time with your team to be inducted. As you may or may not be aware of, there is only one plaque in Cooperstown with a player wearing a Royals hat- George Brett. So it's something special for us Royals fans to seek him out, much the same way it is for Astros fans and the Killer B's, I'm sure. I'm hopeful that Greinke will become the second player to be inducted with a Royals hat in the near future. It won't be the same as Brett, since Zack has played for multiple other teams and spent a lot of his prime with other franchises (including Houston!)- though he had some great individual seasons and won a Cy Young in KC- but if it happens it will only strengthen the bond between Zack and Royals fans and give us all another plaque to prioritize whenever we visit the Hall!
Lots of similarities between our two teams, Patrick; There's never been any reason for me to look upon the Royals, over the decades, with anything other than light fandom and appreciation...of their players, their purty unis, and their similarly "nice" players the Astros always seemed to nurture!
We were on pins and needles in Space City, always wondering if the lingering shadow of substance abuse would keep hanging over Baggy, blocking his entrance to the Hall. Linked in that same Biggio article, Patrick, is one you might enjoy (with a title I'm kinda proud of): "Jeff Bagwell and His Use of Performance Enhancing Talent"! Kind of a digit of choice in the direction of Hall voters who couldn't and wouldn't move forward even as they had no proof of usage. The article includes some eye-popping stats few seem to know about Jeff's career.
Man, Zack will be a coin flip, won't he? I'd love to see stats and some comps with other Hall pitchers as to his likely eligibility. He pitched so long, it's likely his longevity (and the stats on the backside of his career) might tend to deflate some of his fabulousness. But, oh, what his acceptance speech would be like!!!😱
Thanks again for allowing me to "rent" your site's acreage for my article links! You're very kind, and I appreciate it....hope your readers dig'em, too!
Amen, always interesting Patrick! I took my two sons to see in my estimation the best induction ever, George Brett, Nolan Ryan & Robin Young & someone I can't remember? I believe he was an old Cardinal. Got to go back, it was way too crowded. Est. 40K fans for that induction, a record I believe. I agree with you on Rolan.
Thanks, Ed. If I could go back and attend any induction ceremony, it would probably be that one!
El Tiante!!!!
Robin Yount